nineveh_uk: Illustration that looks like Harriet Vane (Default)
nineveh_uk ([personal profile] nineveh_uk) wrote2010-07-09 07:40 am
Entry tags:

Wimseyfic AU!weather not completely fluff

A ‘what-if’ moment, namely ‘what if the weather at the end of Gaudy Night had not been nice and sunny’? Thanks to [livejournal.com profile] antisoppist whose comment on Harriet’s not getting to ask Peter to marry her gave this an ending and what point it has.

The rain it raineth on the just

The audience had applauded and the packed hall was slowly clearing. Peter, with Harriet leaning against him, felt no particular need to hurry to the doors, and they lingered under the eyes of the old portraits as the room emptied with a surprising amount of grumbling after an excellent concert. Eventually reaching the doors they discovered the reason for both grumbling and delay. It was raining. White fountains danced on the flagstones and rose in a grey mist as great spouts overwhelmed the guttering. The noise was extraordinary.

‘Into each life some rain must fall,’ said Lord Peter, ‘but I wish it wouldn’t do it now. Look here, you’d better wait in the Lodge and I’ll see if I can summon some sort of car. Will you?’

This was not the intended finale.

Harriet, conscious of her high heels, reflected that feminine independence was all very well, but that at this particular moment to stay warm and dry was better.

‘Thank you, Peter.’

They had turned back to the doorway for the dash over the quad, when the Balliol porter appeared.

‘Excuse me, my lord. Your man has left your car in the Master’s yard. Your lordship knows the way?’ He handed over a large umbrella and raised his hat. ‘Good evening, miss.’

‘Bunter,’ said Harriet ‘is a marvel.’

‘Isn’t he? And on his evening off, too.’

They splashed across the cobbles to the gleaming Daimler. The car, its roof closed, was warm and a little humid, but dry. Wimsey inspected his trouser hems mournfully.

‘It’s a vile evening. Let’s not go and frowst indoors. We’ll take the long way round and farewell the town.’

‘All right, Peter.’

He swung the car out onto St Giles’ and headed north up the Woodstock Road. The heavy chestnuts glowed darkly under the grey sky and the road ran with water. Peter drove without speaking. Harriet, oddly and acutely aware of his presence, could not tell if he were pre-occupied merely with the road conditions, or with some other thought. A lorry passed them with a blinding spray. Peter pulled over.

‘We’ll be in the gutter at this rate. Let’s give it five minutes.’

‘I think that would be wise. Still, the Daimler makes a very nice ark.’

‘Doesn’t she? Better than waitin’ for a taxi in the Porter’s Lodge?’

‘Much better.’

‘You’re not cold?’

‘Hardly! It’s boiling.’ The atmosphere had become rather heavy and self-conscious. Harriet hunted for something insignificant to say. ‘How long do you think they shall keep you in Italy?’

‘I don’t know. They always say it’ll only be a week or two, signifying nothin’. I hope it shan’t be too long; Rome gets so hot in summer melting in Tiber isn’t the word. I think the rain’s getting worse.’

‘It’s the wind shifting.’

‘Maybe - yes. Harriet.’

He had been half-turned towards her, but now he shifted to stare out at the water running over the windscreen, one thumb rubbing at the leather wheel, hunting for words. The car, felt Harriet, was increasingly far too small and closed in and inhibiting. It made things awkward; one couldn’t get away, and it was worse every minute, this feeling that something significant must be about to be said and things might become dreadfully embarrassing and regrettable – or nothing would be said, which was unendurable. Because surely after everything that had happened he couldn’t now leave Oxford without – unless he really had changed, and what would one do then? If only one knew what one wanted him to do. She looked vainly for support from the elements. Delay – if the rain died and let them drive on – distraction and time to collect oneself - but it was still raining, refreshing if not soft, and Peter sat like marble, resolution placed, or wandering? And to what end?

The black sky tore in two, the thunderclap resounding overhead from Shotover to Wytham Woods. As the clamour faded Harriet was conscious of an overwhelming relief at the interruption.

‘Heavens! In thunder, lightning, and in rain,’ she laughed, ‘Did you see it? Right over the road.’

Peter, who was looking rather startled, said nothing for a moment and then shook his head swiftly.

‘No. I’m sorry. Are you all right?’

‘Quite all right, though I must have jumped half out of my skin.’

‘It’s my fault. It was a stupid idea to stay out in this. I’ll take you home.’

‘Really, Peter, there’s no need. I enjoy a good storm.’

Another flash of lightning, and thunder crashing overhead with a noise like the last trump. She looked at Peter.

He sat white-faced and rigid, hands seized upon the steering wheel. With a tremendous effort he overcame himself, dropping his hands to his lap.

‘That was rather a surprise.’

‘Wasn’t it?’ Harriet touched her fingers to his. ‘You don’t like thunder?’

The dart of a cornered expression told her that it had been the wrong question, but he answered lightly enough,

‘Not especially, no.’

‘If you’d rather go back - I could drive if you don’t feel up to it.’

‘Please don’t trouble about it. It’s only foolishness.’ Peter’s expression suggested that he would like to curl up in the footwell and die, if only it wouldn’t be impolite. He removed his hand from hers and drew out his cigarette case. ‘Besides, the roads are no good for the car like this.’ Harriet accepted the cigarette and smoked quietly. Thunder rumbled in the distance, scarcely audible over the continuing storm of rain, but Peter showed no outward sign of noticing but the cigarette burning to ash in a stiff hand.

Harriet, finding limited fascination in the weather, was conscious of a growing impatience. Damn Peter! What right had he to behave like this, to be so extraordinarily embarrassed over something so ordinary? Who was he, whose job it was to drag everyone else’s shameful and humiliating secrets out into the light, to be so precious about his own weakness? As if he hadn’t known every single beastly thing about one the first time they met, as if that very meeting hadn’t been in circumstances so horrible and degrading! Although no, not quite everything, because there had been tonight, when one had said things that had been impossible … That was Bach, irresistibly drawing one to confession, only Peter had known the right thing to say and Harriet plainly had not. Miss de Vine had been quite right. Two independent and irritable intelligences could hurt each other so easily. Only how queer now, after shutting Peter out for all these years to feel wounded by his doing the same, because after all one had no claim to confidences and had told him so very firmly. He turned to her suddenly with an apologetic smile.

‘I am most frightfully sorry. This must be very boring for you.’

‘It wouldn’t be,’ said Harriet, ‘if you weren’t being so silly about it. Honestly, Peter, what does it matter?’

‘It’s not much of a farewell to Oxford, sitting in the rain with a blithering idiot.’

‘For God’s sake, Peter, stop being so maudlin! You’re not at prep school now, you know. As if anyone cared about it. Hell! I’m no good at being sympathetic. I never know what to say.’

‘It doesn’t matter. And I can’t apologise enough for my appallin’ behaviour. It’ll be all right in a moment, and then we can go if - you’ll trust my driving.’

Another spark of irritation, and a slightly guilty feeling that she wasn’t sure she did trust his driving in the event of further thunder. The rain had eased off, but the gutters were full and the carriageway awash with black water and fallen leaves. He caught her hesitation and looked quickly away. Blast! thought Harriet, with a sense that she was being well and truly served with her own medicine. I might have handled that better. If only he’d let me – but I haven’t any right, though he’s tried to give it me often enough. Well then, if I wanted – but it was a ridiculous idea, to give in all of a sudden merely because one was exasperated with the man for being an idiot. Only it wouldn’t be giving in, not really, not like this, and it ought to be preposterous, only it wasn’t, because after all...

It was hopeless. One couldn’t reason it out like that, not in the end. One could only do what seemed right now. Hadn’t Peter said often enough that he knew what he wanted? Well, if he meant it he could damn well be the one to have to take.

She touched his shoulder lightly, and he turned to face her again. Now for it.

‘I don’t want to go back to Shrewsbury, Peter. Not now.’ Peter said nothing. He had gone absolutely still. Harriet wasn’t entirely sure that she was still breathing herself. ‘My dear Peter, I’m not nearly as patient as you. I can't wait another five years for you to come to your senses.’

‘Harriet?’ His sudden look of hope made her absolutely certain: it was the right thing after all.

‘Do you still want to marry me, Peter?’

‘Yes.’ He was pale, but the husky voice was level. ‘You know that I do. I love you.’

‘Yes, I do know that now.’ Known for ages, only wouldn’t face it, but it wasn’t the moment to get distracted, because this was the difficult bit, and one had to get it right because otherwise it would be worse than anything. ‘I won’t force confessions – I’ve always hated that – but, Peter, if we did – if it were to work -’

‘It would work’ he said intently. ‘I know it would.’

‘ – if it were to work, Peter, it could only because it was truly on equal terms.’

‘Of course! That’s what I want, I’ve told you.’ To the south over Somerville the sound of thunder rose again but he didn’t seem to hear it.

‘It isn’t enough to tell,’ she said gently. ‘You needn’t tell me anything if you don’t want to, but you must let me care. You said you didn’t want tactful dependants; if you meant that, then mustn’t make me into one, because I won’t be that. We couldn’t be happy like that.’

‘I meant it,’ he said, and she thought how simple it was after all. ‘Only,’

‘It isn’t easy. God knows it’s taken me long enough. But I do care, Peter, if you want -’ She laid a hand against his cheek for a moment and felt his head rest against it.

‘Will you marry me, Peter? Then for God’s sake hold my hand.’

*

Police Constable Brown, stumping home with a feeling of increasing damp about his person, saw the dim figures inside the car and sighed. It was always the well-off types in their big cars; of course, they were the only ones with room in them. Drawing level with the Daimler’s nearside front window he knocked sharply with his knuckle and waited. The couple sprung apart and the window slowly lowered, revealing a pair of academic gowns and an eyeglass. PC Brown, who had learned early not to let a don get in the first word, said briskly,

‘Evenin’ sir. Have you ask to move the car, I’m afraid. Can’t have it blocking the road like this.’

‘All right, constable. We’ll move along.’

‘Thank you, sir. Good night.’

He withdrew and strolled slowly. Harriet winding up the window as Peter started the car, found herself giggling.

‘At least he wasn’t the proctor. That would have been awkward.’

‘I'm glad you see it that way. Let’s get out of here, and then we can decide what to do. Though choices are a little limited.’

‘Hmm.’

Wimsey turned into a sideroad and switched off the lights.

‘That’s taken care of him, but look here, it isn’t eleven yet. There must be some alternative to taking you home, only the country sideroads will be bad, the town’s crawling with police and proctors, and the car isn’t very comfortable anyway. I shall carry the mark of the handbrake in my knee for some time. But I can’t think of anything else.’

‘Then it’s a good thing I’m here,’ said Harriet, fishing in her bag, ‘because this key opens the Shrewsbury boathouse.’

‘Harriet!’

‘I don’t promise it’s particularly comfortable, but there’s a solid roof and there certainly aren’t any handbrakes, and the students are usually quite good about bringing in the cushions.’

‘However did I manage without you?’

‘Badly, I should say. Now kiss me and drive before that policeman comes along again.’

‘This is one other gaudy night. Oh, Harriet!’

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-12 01:45 pm (UTC)(link)
It is sad that the only bit P is confident about doing well is the sex
And - post-corpse - he's not even particularly confident about that. I may be being overly soft, but I find the “I won’t make a nuisance of myself” line on the second night in BH rather sad. The intended message of “If you’re not in the mood, what with the dead body, then no pressure” may be entirely reasonable, but the way of expressing it is a double-whammy of not quite being able to escape the double standard* and what it feels too extreme to call self-loathing, but is a sort of self-pointlessness, with the assumption that his own charms are no match for a corpse.

*Marvellously expressed by Frasier’s father in the sitcom: “Sex is a private thing between you and the person you’re doing it to.”

[identity profile] dolorous-ett.livejournal.com 2010-07-12 03:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I really enjoyed this - funny and touching and original without straying into Too Much Information territory...

Great stuff!

[identity profile] lopezuna-writes.livejournal.com 2010-07-12 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I love this: The symmetry of Harriet revealing her last weakness, and Peter being forced to drop for a moment the mask of balance and order (Harriet says that he reveals his weakness in the Dean's sitting room, but this is of course far from the truth). Harriet having the strength of mind, in the face of her realization that she's fallen in love, to remind him that if he truly wants equality, he will have to take as well as to give. And Harriet, impatient, irritable and incurably honest cutting straight to the point:

‘Will you marry me, Peter? Then for God’s sake, hold my hand.’

[identity profile] fallingtowers.livejournal.com 2010-07-12 06:31 pm (UTC)(link)
The only thing that broke for me today was the only fan in our office room. In the end, we were close to praying for rain. I think any desirable amateur sleuth could have walked on stark naked, and everyone would just have nodded weakly and said, "oh, yes, let's take our clothes off, shall we?" and collapsed again at their desks.

[identity profile] antisoppist.livejournal.com 2010-07-12 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Well it starts off as a purely practical point of changing rooms as Harriet wished they hadn't slept in Noakes' bed. He's trying to do what she wants again, but the way he puts it leaves her not sure what he means either and they end up in a downward spiral of "maybe he/she doesn't want to". The moment of negotiating the first night they *don't* have sex has to happen at some point in the relationship but night two of the honeymoon is probably a bit early. It would have been even more reassuring if Harriet had dragged him *in*, convincing him that he might possibly be capable of taking her mind off the spectre of Noakes in his nightshirt.

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-12 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I feel that "Harriet soothes Peter's pancreatitis" might be an AU too far...

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-12 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
It would have been even more reassuring if Harriet had dragged him *in*

Only if it had worked. You wouldn't want a cry of "Stop! I keep thinking about our decomposing seller!" at a vital moment.

I certainly hope they don't have sex on the Friday night. I doubt the House of Lords lavatories are set up for quickies. Though I do wonder how much expectation/obligation/"oh dear, s/he's going to take it as really significant" is playing out in the final chapters.

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-13 11:18 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you. I love Harriet when she is being irritiable and impatient - she is so very plausible! And yet without being hideously smug as a result - far from it in fact - she genuinely does face up to things in a way Peter doesn't.

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-13 01:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh dear. HOpe you at least get a new fan, even if the weather doesn't change!

(Anonymous) 2010-07-15 04:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks for the links - read them lunchtime but not allowed to reply at work - still smiling hours later - Oh, poor Harriet!

[identity profile] lizzzar.livejournal.com 2010-07-17 10:36 am (UTC)(link)
This is so sweet and so like DLS that
I'd like to read it all over again. You've caught Peter's
anxieties and both their vulnerabilities almost better than
I remember DLS always managing. I totally convinced that
they're on their way to achieving a loving mutuality, starting
with the Shrewsbury boathouse.

[identity profile] lizzzar.livejournal.com 2010-07-17 11:11 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry about the grammar - I'm now typing on a phone
and find it harder to check. But this was so lovely
that I now want to re-read Gaudy Night and
Busman's Honeymoon although I can't really remember
anything that worked quite so well as this.

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2010-07-18 06:10 am (UTC)(link)
Who was he, whose job it was to drag everyone else’s shameful and humiliating secrets out into the light, to be so precious about his own weakness? As if he hadn’t known every single beastly thing about one the first time they met, as if that very meeting hadn’t been in circumstances so horrible and degrading!

I don't know about anyone else, but I found this bit very insightful, and extremely helpful when it comes to understanding BH, which normally makes me feels as if DLS is dragging out the angst unnecessarily in order to give the relationship a bit of spice, post-nuptials (untroubled domestic bliss being distinctly boring to read about). But you have opened my eyes and viewed from this perspective, yes, they do still have Issues to work through, and Peter really is trying to hide his own weakness.

Going off on a tangent, I have just read on a metafandom post about realism the observation that one of the non-realistic things people want from fic is emotionally open men, with the prime example of What Fic-Readers Want being a man sobbing in his partner's arms. And I thought blow me, so that's why the (ahem) climax of Peter/Harriet is not the proposal.

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-19 02:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks! As may be obvious, I have a soft spot for Peter and Harriet, even at their most irritating, annoyed, and unreasonable!

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-19 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I am always glad to be helpful and insightful ;-)

I tend to read BH as having Peter really not very well, and in denial (or not facing up to) what getting married means right from the start. Likewise Harriet hops over her insecurities whilst things are going well, but they aren't entirely rid of. Hence the corpse makes things more acute, but the issues themselves are already there. They really don't know one another that well in some fairly important ways, and indeed sans corpse how long would it take for Harriet to realise and get sick of feeling that Peter was still shutting her out in some pretty significant ways, whilst expecting access to her feelings. (And to raise my favourite "no-one else has read this, but it illustrates it well" book, the climax of Kristin Lavransdatter I is not the marriage, but the parents afterwards confessing things after 27 years of marriage.)

I'm afraid I rather fell off the realism post at its description of women, not having generally laughed, cried, and sat on beds painting my nails, though to be fair, she does note that she is talking about culturally-conditioned women in a certain limited situation - US women's college - but it still made me think "What do you mean, "we", white man?" Which is a pity, because I think she's got a point about some of the requests for "just be realistic", and the requirement that wounds bleed in accordance with the latest physiological knowledge even as the protagonists are on a spaceship.
Edited 2010-07-19 20:44 (UTC)

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2010-07-20 05:39 am (UTC)(link)
I am always glad to be helpful and insightful ;-)


Thank goodness for that! Because you are so often that it would be a shame if it made you feel grotty and grouchy.

I tend to read BH as having Peter really not very well, and in denial (or not facing up to) what getting married means right from the start.

It's a good reading, and the clues are all there, but I have to admit that I had simply never noticed them before. I think it's partly that I was too willing to take Peter's mask at face value, and partly that BH has always irritated me because of the lengths it goes to to rub Peter and Harriet's Wonderful Togetherness into Miss Twitterton's face (actually, writing that makes me think that maybe there is something Sayersish about The Time Travellers's Wife after all, a claim I have always heatedly denied). I could never see that there really was a problem in the relationship (obviously I could see that Peter's recation to getting people hanged was a prolem and needed to be dealt with, but I couldn't see how that had any organic connection to his relationship with Harriet, and therefore quite a lot of BH seemed to me to be indulging in pointless angst).

The other insight I owe to you (so you know it's not just Peter/Harriet I'm blind about) is how awful things were for Bunter as well. I'd always thought his outburst over the port was funny but a bit infra dig, until you pointed out how desperate he is to make sure the honeymoon is perfect. And not only does everything go wrong in ways that cannot objectively be considered Bunter's fault (however unreasonable an employer might be in insisting on comfort without asking how that comfort can be arranged under these conditions, even Helen couldn't have blamed a servant for the corpse), the port, which falls entirely within his responsibility, is rendered undrinkable - so not only has he failed to be Jeeves, he's failed to even a halfway decent job by standards much lower than his own. No wonder he freaks out.

I think she's got a point about some of the requests for "just be realistic", and the requirement that wounds bleed in accordance with the latest physiological knowledge even as the protagonists are on a spaceship.

I think she's got a very good point (I missed the bit about toe-nail painting in bed, for some reason. Skim-reading, probably). A couple of years ago MfU fandom had a bonkers!challenge, in which you had to write fic in which one of the main characters went mad and killed at least one of the other characters. One person wrote a lengthy review of one particular story, saying that it wasn't realistic, because character X would have been more suspicious, and character Y would have investigated more closely, and therefore character Z wouldn't have got away with it. And someone else replied saying that she was very glad the fic wasn't more realistic, because she would have hated to read a realistic fic about Illya going mad an killing Napoleon, but she thoroughly enjoyed it as a silly piece of fluff that didn't ask her to believe that it had happened. And I think this is true of a lot of fanfic - it doesn't get read (or written)as for what it tells us about reality. We don't push characters off cliffs because we want to read a medically accurate description of the resulting injuries, we do it because we want them in a lot of sexy pain. The fics aren't even trying to be realistic (it's a bit like criticising Shakespeare for writing identical twins of different sexes - the genetics of twindom are so not the point of Twelfth Night).

[identity profile] antisoppist.livejournal.com 2010-07-20 01:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Eavesdropping and butting in

BH has always irritated me because of the lengths it goes to to rub Peter and Harriet's Wonderful Togetherness into Miss Twitterton's face

I always skip that bit because it's too excruciatingly embarrassing for everybody, including me. But it's satisfying that it's the Wonderful Togetherness that leads to the potentially marriage-wrecking "do we grass up Miss T as a suspect?" conversation where Peter once more thinks that just giving Harriet her own way will make everything all right again.

When I first read BH, I was 19 and it was the second Sayers I'd read after Gaudy Night so I was awash in the romance and rather bemused as to why Sayers clearly thought Peter crying in her arms was a triumph for Harriet. But on re-reading and re-reading and re-reading since, and acquiring rather more life experience, I've found myself going "but hang on a minute..." about all sorts of things and Nineveh_uk's insightful insights make perfect sense. I have seen the play but can't remember how much of the marriage/power/knowledge of each other's innermost yick problem was in that and how much was glued in afterwards for the book (apart from the prologue and epilogue and the sundial churchyard scene, which are definitely book only).

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-20 02:20 pm (UTC)(link)
actually, writing that makes me think that maybe there is something Sayersish about The Time Travellers's Wife after all, a claim I have always heatedly denied
That Henry and Claire are rubbing their specialness in the face of the rest of the world? The Sayers annoyances really irritate me in that – it’s just so stuck-on. I’d like to see Harriet’s response to Peter reading Rilke to her whilst she was in labour… Actually, with reference to realism, TTW annoys me enormously because it isn’t internally consistent, and I think that often “realism” is used when what is meant is internally consistent. So it is unrealistic for Hogwarts to have US-style graduation, but it is more important that it is not internally consistent for Hogwarts to have US-style graduation. And if 6 pregnancies fail because the stressed foetus time-travels out of the womb, why the hell is there a lengthy birth scene and no sensible caesarean section? That’s pure ignoring a key strand of the story just in order to put in the particular emotional scene demanded (and could have been got round very easily by e.g. making the miscarriages due to Claire’s body rejecting what it perceived as a flawed organism).

I think I’m a bit harsh to the realism OP – her men/women example wasn’t a good one, given that her depiction of female friendships was the sort of thing that I’d read in e.g. Harry Potter fanfic and sigh at as unrealistic. But as your MfU example makes clear, her central point that realism is often very much not wanted stands. What I want as a reader is plausibility, and that’s a different thing.

even Helen couldn't have blamed a servant for the corpse
Yes, she could, she'd have blamed Peter's agent for mismanaging the purchase. I shall have to think further about Bunter's letting himself go in front of Mrs Ruddle. I'm sure even thus distressed he wouldn't in front of Peter, and there is an aspect of this being a moment of his establishing himself as the Awful Figure who isn't to be crossed, but "there's a curse upon this house", however melodramatic, is actually his experience of it in the everything's falling apart aspect, including Peter as he's well aware, and the port incident is a genuine blow to his professional persona. He's supposed to create order out of chaos, not the other way round.

And it's also possible that I just spend too much time thinking about it all.
Edited 2010-07-20 14:20 (UTC)

You are Joey Maynard and I claim my £5

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-20 03:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I like "insightful insights" a lot more than "thinky thoughts".

I have to confess that it was Wonderful Togetherness that - with the plane journey and cost and time - put me off going to see the play in Chicago last year, something that was definitely the sensible decision though I mourn it a little. That said, I can actually see the WT working better on stage in some respects, and having external dramatic power as opposed to readerly cringing. In my case that's at the lurve - I've no qualms the moment Miss Twitterton turns up.

I have a copy of the play, and it does have a fair amount of the m/p/k/innermost yick (nice characterisation) aspect, but nothing like the volume of the book.

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2010-07-21 06:17 am (UTC)(link)
That Henry and Claire are rubbing their specialness in the face of the rest of the world?

That the author is rubbing their specialness in the face of the world. A couple of my favourite poems are by Rilke, but I wouldn't want anyone reading them out to me while in labour (I wouldn't mind reciting them myself, but then reciting stuff learned off by heart is well-known device for resisting torture).

I think that often “realism” is used when what is meant is internally consistent

I totally agree with you about the importance of internal consistency, and if that was when people meant when they said "realism" I'd be more inclined to agree that there should be more of it. But in my experience "realism" gets used to mean "apparent verisimilitude" - an obsession with the surface details of real life - and an unwillingness to accept that fiction works differently. I'm reminded that one of the things that people praise about the musical episode of Buffy is that it gets round the problem that people "don't actually ever" burst into song accompanied by a full orchestra while working down the street - and which is therefore "unrealistic" - by having a demon cast a spell that makes the singing and the music happen. And it never seems to occur to anyone that a demon casting a spell is just as unrealistic as having people burst into song, let alone that musicals are not claiming that people burst into song at the drop of a hat in real life, but that this is just a way of telling a story.

Perhaps what it comes down to is that a lot of people have trouble with the idea of form. They can figure out that the demon with the spell only has to be consistent with the rest of the fictional universe, in which demons and spells are normal, but they think that the singing and dancing must also somehow be consistent with the story universe (and where that overlaps with ours, then it must be consistent with ours).

And if 6 pregnancies fail because the stressed foetus time-travels out of the womb, why the hell is there a lengthy birth scene and no sensible caesarean section?

Especially in America, where they appear to whip out the scalpel automatically the second a woman goes into labour.

"there's a curse upon this house", however melodramatic, is actually his experience of it in the everything's falling apart aspect, including Peter as he's well aware, and the port incident is a genuine blow to his professional persona. He's supposed to create order out of chaos, not the other way round.

I think there's also an element of him feeling his job's on the line. After all, he felt insecure enough to check that Peter would still want to employ him after he got married, and although Peter told him not to be such an ass, Talboys must have made Bunter worry that he would change his mind - the honeymoon, that was supposed to be perfect, is a disaster, nothing works, it's his fault because he didn't go ahead to sort it all out, the chimneys are blocked, there's a corpse in the cellar, the stove doesn't work properly, he's failed all round, Peter must be getting increasingly unhappy about how his standards have slipped, and then to cap it all, just when Peter was looking forward to a consoling glass of port, Bunter has to go and admit that he's screwed up there as well.

there is an aspect of this being a moment of his establishing himself as the Awful Figure who isn't to be crossed

But it's also one of the few moments (maybe the only one?) where Sayers describes his unflappable persona as a mask, and it clearly slips. He's amongst people of his own class, he drops the impeccable standard English in his excitement, and he lets the emotions show. And then, all in a second, he pulls the mask back on and stuffs all the feelings away, and it happens so fast that it's actually disturbing for the other characters to watch. He may be being a bit of a drama queen, but I'm inclined to think it really is a temporary loss of control.

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-21 10:48 am (UTC)(link)
But in my experience "realism" gets used to mean "apparent verisimilitude" - an obsession with the surface details of real life - and an unwillingness to accept that fiction works differently.

That's a good point, not least the "apparent", because what is accepted as realistic is itself often a trope. Hence the popularity of the grimy spaceship, in which dirt acts as corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative, despite the fact that in reality (ahem) a big military spaceship, like a big military ship or aircraft is highly likely _not_ to be dirty at all. I'm often struck when you raise issues of reality, and the depiction thereof, in relation to theatre, as that's not a direction that my mind would go as a reference point.

there's also an element of him feeling his job's on the line
And then there's Harriet - Bunter really doesn't know her at all, and if she pushes and Peter has to choose, he can guess where the axe will fall (though being asked along for dinner must have been reassuring to some extent, this is pre-port).

I can think of other palces where the mask slips, but not where it is actually described as a mask (and the pulling back together must be incredibly effective, to send Miss Twitterton to "Mr Bunter").

actually disturbing for the other characters to watch
It is at times such as this that I think of Bunter as the "main character most likely to be a secret axe-murderer".
Edited 2010-07-21 10:49 (UTC)

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2010-07-21 11:01 am (UTC)(link)
what is accepted as realistic is itself often a trope

Exactly! Including, for instance, that everyone in a sympathetic role is quite startlingly beautiful, or that they wear clothes way beyond their character's budget. Injuries not being disgusting, as they are in real life, is on a par with the heroine's hair always being glossy, no matter how mnay days she has spent slogging through the forest/fighting off aliens/lost in the desert. And no on ever has bad teeth.

I'm often struck when you raise issues of reality, and the depiction thereof, in relation to theatre

I suppose theatre forces to think about this sort of thing, in the same way as modern art makes you think about "what is representational art"?, because it's been through all the phases, from exaggerated melodrama to hard-core naturalism (hard core naturalism is unbelievably difficult to do well, not least because most people have no idea how human beings actually speak and behave - you have to learn to watch people all over again), to the the highly stylised, abstract approach of a lot of modern theatre. And then there's the fact that acting that looks "realistic" in one context, won't work at all in another - a performance designed for the Olivier at the National, but watched in a small rehearsal room, will seem outrageously exggerated and over the top, but a performance deisgned for a fifty-seat cellar theatre will vanish completely if played at the Olivier. If you take Stanislavksy as the founder of modern theatre, then right from the beginning the key question has been "How do we make this look real?" (Stanislavsky once did a production set in a Russian village and featuring a genuine peasant woman. He had to sack her because she was so overwhelmingly authentic, she made it obvious that all the toher, professional actors were just pretending).

[identity profile] azdak.livejournal.com 2010-07-21 11:02 am (UTC)(link)
I think of Bunter as the "main character most likely to be a secret axe-murderer".


I reserve that honour for Sir Impey Biggs (who is also wearing a mask, but one that never slips).

[identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com 2010-07-21 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I do seem to recall some comments about how the women on Lost mysteriously had perfectly shaved legs, but that's definitely the exception. And no-one ever, ever has bad teeth.

I love the too-realistic peasant story. There really does need to be a "collected entertaining bits of Stanislavsky for laypeople" volume. And I certainly take as "realistic" in opera stuff that I'd consider appallingly hammy in a play. (I once saw a concert production of Billy Budd which had the audience in absolute silence for well over thirty seconds after the end, because Philip Langridge's performance was so powerful that one pretty much believe he had walked off-stage and straight into the Thames to drown himself. But I'd have died with embarrassment at it in the Donmar.)

I note from Busman's Honeymoon (Ch. 7) "Bunter's face stirred, as though some human emotion were trying to break through." It's rather tragic, really.

[identity profile] middleagedbiddy.livejournal.com 2010-07-25 06:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh well done Harriet - at last!

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