nineveh_uk: Illustration that looks like Harriet Vane (Harriet)
[personal profile] nineveh_uk
‘You can sit down, you know,’ said Miss Vane, gesturing to the other armchair. Boyes sat.

‘How about some coffee, old girl?’

Miss Vane looked at him coldly. ‘I said you could come round. If you want someone to serve you food and drink, I suggest you employ a maid.’

*

‘Mr Boyes!’ exclaimed Hannah Westlock, opening the door to find that gentleman on the top step, supported by the strong arm of the driver. ‘Now you sit down here, and I’ll ring for the doctor.’

‘Never mind the doctor, get me a brandy. That b- wouldn’t even give me a cup of coffee.’

***

Forget buying poison while giving the name of famous murderers, or living with your boyfriend. Ironically, what ultimately lands Harriet Vane in the dock isn’t a social transgression, but adherence to social rules of politeness, first that Harriet actually agree to Boyes' demand that they meet, second that having done so she is required to play the hostess. Rules so strict that the murderer can rely on them in setting up his alibi: Urquhart offers Boyes Turkish coffee, which Boyes doesn’t like, thus setting up the chance for a statement that Harriet will offer coffee, and increasing the chance of Boyes actually drinking it.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 06:45 pm (UTC)
azdak: (Default)
From: [personal profile] azdak
I love your "ways of fucking up DLS's plot" fics. If only Harriet had given the loathly Phil the cold shoulder like that!

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 10:50 pm (UTC)
antisoppist: (HW_Amy_thoughtful)
From: [personal profile] antisoppist
I thought she blamed herself for her scandalous life and didn't blame the police for following motive, means and opportunity. But it hadn't occurred to me that the opportunity would have disappeared if she hadn't given him anything to drink. *raises glass*.

The judge does think immorality equals murder, however. Her case is slightly improved by giving him coffee out of a saucepan rather than making it specially for just him as any decently devoted woman would have done.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 08:33 am (UTC)
antisoppist: HW Amy sideways 1 (HW sideways)
From: [personal profile] antisoppist
*replies to self now not under the influence of post-choir ginger wine (it has nearly run out)*

It wasn't until discussions on the list and elsewhere that I considered the possibility that Urquart had deliberately set her up. I'm still not sure whether he did or not, or if he did, whether it was more calculated than just keeping as many options as possible open for the police. But Harriet doesn't consider it either does she? Would it not have taken 5 years if she could have told herself "I was framed by a calculating bastard"? (not that that would improve anyone's ability to trust men ever again really). And "some murderers do deserve to get hanged" would have been an interesting variation at the end of BUSM.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 01:41 pm (UTC)
antisoppist: HW Amy sideways 1 (HW sideways)
From: [personal profile] antisoppist
After all, Urquhart doesn’t actually want Boyes’ death to be considered murder.
That is a very good point.

What of the judge's roughly matching the dates of Boyes' gastric attacks to the dates when Harriet bought poison? That has to be just coincidence, yes? The dates coinciding with meetings with Harriet works in the sense that, if they are poisoning attempts, Urquhart is following the same formula of doing it on nights when Boyes is going out to Bohemian parties with potential other suspects about.

And were they trial runs or did it take Urquhart several goes to get the fatal dose right? If he's aiming for suicide, he wants it to be soon after the break-up with Harriet rather than months later and before Mrs Wrayburn goes and dies on him. No wonder the version that works is so carefully planned if it took him four tries to get it right. I see him as opportunist and a bit panicky rather than an evil mastermind of cunning. He should have sorted the fake will out much earlier too.

I was going to suggest you wrote the Urquhart trial next. I suppose there is no need for Harriet to be called as a witness alongside Peter.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-11 12:39 pm (UTC)
antisoppist: HW Amy sideways 1 (HW sideways)
From: [personal profile] antisoppist
There would have been a huge amount of publicity over Harriet being called as a witness - particularly alongside Peter - and you'd think she'd have mentioned it at some point. I suspect it went on murderer's confession and she didn't get called but I would like her to be and the reasons you give do justify it. We don't get Peter's reaction to Urquhart's hanging either, even at the end of BUSM. "It might have been me" doesn't really cover it. It is all missing!

The trouble with panicky opportunist (though supported by his reaction to the Turkish delight) is that the alibi required a lot of calculated forward planning. How long does it take to build up immunity anyway? Today's theory is that he was so enamoured of his own perfect murder method that he forgot to think about anything else.

There is no such thing as too many WIPs.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jennyrad.livejournal.com
This is a remarkably clever point. Most interesting.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 07:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com
Thanks! It was one of those "hang on a minute" things.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 10:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jennyrad.livejournal.com
It was a very timely time, having read this, to go and watch the Hobbit, wherein Bilbo Baggins has a similar, albeit murder-free, problem ...

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tudorpot.livejournal.com
applauds!

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 07:41 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-09 08:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madamedarque.livejournal.com
Ah, this is great! Very illuminating--and you made me want to punch Philip Boyes through the screen in about six words.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 12:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com
I almost want to punch Philip Boyes through the screen. It helps to remember that the man he's based on suffered the ultimate revenge of being described as bad in bed in a bestseller ;-)

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 06:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sonetka.livejournal.com
Niiiiiice. Of course, it *could* be a coincidence (Urquhart likes Turkish coffee as a rule anyway, doesn't he?) but all the better for plausible deniability later. Things could still go wrong, though -- Harriet and Philip might have quarreled so badly that he would have left before he even drank anything, or he could have begun feeling ill a little sooner and not wanted any coffee. But then there'd be the "suspicion-proof" dinner to fall back on, so it could be chalked up as a suicide. Damn, but Urquhart is a nasty piece of work. I suppose the idea was that while an inquiry into a suicide can always be reopened, law enforcement are going to be very reluctant to reopen an inquiry into a case where someone has already been executed for the crime.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 08:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] penguineggs.livejournal.com
You can't prove a negative; even if Harriet says Boyes didn't drink anything at her house she can't prove it, but Urquhart can prove the innocence of everything he ate at Urquhart's.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 08:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sonetka.livejournal.com
True enough. Still, as weak as the case is against Harriet in the real story, it's hard to imagine her even being detained if neither Boyes nor Harriet ever mentions his having coffee with her. Even less so if he tells Hannah Westlock that the bitch wouldn't even give him coffee :).

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 12:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com
It would certainly have given Impey Biggs a lot more to work with if she were charged:

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury, this lady is accused of the crime – the capital crime – of murder. Only the greatest certainty of her guilt could justify her conviction in this case. But what certainties has the Attorney General presented the court with? Murder requires motive, means, and above all, it requires opportunity. My learned friend has failed to prove that Miss Vane had the means, he has failed to prove she had any motive, and the words of Mr Boyes himself, speaking now from beyond the grave, assure us beyond any doubt that she had no opportunity."

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 12:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com
The really bad option for Urquhart would have been had Harriet and Boyes made up! That's not going to be very plausible on the "stress and misery caused him problems" front, let alone suicide.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 04:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sam-t.livejournal.com
Ah, but then he'd either have collapsed while still at Harriet's, or (had he made it back and told someone that he'd sorted his love life out) the prosecution would have claimed that Harriet was only pretending to be nice so she could poison him. And 'stress from the Fickleness of Woman' is probably still plausible.

(I do like the observations on the coffee! I hadn't quite thought of it like that before.)

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-10 07:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com
If he collapses at Harriet's, then she might end up looking after him (because she can't afford a nurse). In which case, there won't be a nurse with knowledge of arsenic poisoning to spill the beans. Though Harriet recognising the symptoms, reporting it, and ending up under suspicion herself would be interesting!

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-12 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fallingtowers.livejournal.com
Do I sense an AU plotbunny here...?

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-14 09:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com
Only if you want to write it! World enough and time and all that.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-13 09:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stevie-carroll.livejournal.com
A fascinating theory there.

(no subject)

Date: 2013-01-14 09:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nineveh-uk.livejournal.com
Thanks. I always enjoy Wimseyverse theorising :-)

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